Supercharging

[thunderace]

Yeah a turbo wouldn't be a suitable option for the v4 especially on the routing/positioning of the rear cylinders pipe work.

I think its do able with FI and a SC and a smaller tank or shifting the fueling up into the pillion area, (again small tank)

I was under the impression that the engine was going to be used in a 4 wheeled race car like in the link

In which case, I'd mount the engine longitudinally and fit the twin turbos.

[porndoguk]

Yeah a turbo wouldn't be a suitable option for the v4 especially on the routing/positioning of the rear cylinders pipe work.

I think its do able with FI and a SC and a smaller tank or shifting the fueling up into the pillion area, (again small tank)

I was under the impression that the engine was going to be used in a 4 wheeled race car like in the link

In which case, I'd mount the engine longitudinally and fit the twin turbos.

ignore me then TTs for the win

[Cammo]

Ambitious project!

I reckon it could be done but the complexity setting up custom EFI is a large enough job in itself. There are a couple of members on here undertaking EFI conversions on the 400 (mruehl34 and L.Svedberg), details are in their threads in the site supporters area: viewforum.php?f=62

The weak link in the engine will be the rods and crank, I don't think they'd hold up to forced induction so budget for custom units amongst other parts.

You might want to check out Mike Norman's blog documenting his chase for 100 hp from a big bore 400 and the engine development he's undertaken, incredible effort: http://mngforce.typepad.com/

This diagram shows overlap of the nc30 and nc35 cams:

[Neosophist]

I don't think this is the place to ask, I don't believe its been done before, and when most people that come along and say these things they usually end up binning the idea, forum user/member CHRI5 is the only guy I know with turbo and supercharger knowledge however on singes and IL4s

Rick

Don't think I'm trying to pick a fight but I don't get it. You had a rant in another thread about people shooting down a USD fork idea yet your the first to shoot this down?

To the op.

This does some up quite a lot, mainly by 17 year old whos think their super cool NC30 needs more power and it can be done with a box of spares for no money.

If you are seriosu have a look at A&A performance, they sell a bolt on supercharger kit for the VFR800 series of bikes, some clever ideas they used and it looks almost stock.

The thread is drifting towards talk of Turbos which are totally different.

They chose this as the EFI made it easier to set up but there are plenty of Turbo'd carb bikes.





http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/inde ... fications/

Have a look here.



Heres an old GSXR1100 turbo, good candidate for turbo'ing as the block is as strong as granite

[porndoguk]

I don't think this is the place to ask, I don't believe its been done before, and when most people that come along and say these things they usually end up binning the idea, forum user/member CHRI5 is the only guy I know with turbo and supercharger knowledge however on singes and IL4s

Rick

TBH I didn't mean it to sound like I was shooting him down, id actually misread his post I didn't realise it was for a car so space isn't a problem,

I love any R&D posts that actually follow through like lasse and Michaels bikes,

When I meant not the place I meant not enough turbonetic & V4 marriage experiance available here.

im a lover not a fighter mart, and I have no reason to start a fight, especially with those that have helped me

[SCAT]

Hello,

Neosophist, I have seen the A&APerformance mods, and think its a great starting point.
as much as i'd love to drop a 1100 in, rules and regulations forbid..
Although they do it on 800s the set up should be transferable to a 400.
Gearing should be pretty easy, since the AISIN AMR300 (from the subaru Vivio ) starts packing at 1,500rpm to 15,000rpm which is pretty much the V4's range. I might later on consider running it with different gearings to really get more low end and the a clutch to disengage at high Rpm, or better even a CVT! but i'm getting ahead of myself.

However I wouldnt be using a centrifugal but Roots supercharger. Reason to believe it's better for the purpose.

Here's a few more details on the competition: This is only theoretical but I have purchased a V4 block to rig it, see if everything fits. Indeed as its going on an open 4wheel there's plent of space up top.
Reason Twin Turbos wouldn't be the best is because its not for a highway drag but for short acceleration and track tests with many twists and the longest straight only allowing for about 60mph. The lag would be too much of a disadvantage, plus losing 10% due to driving from the crank is outweight by the fact that the turbo only has peak efficiency in a small region.\

Getting a 600 would be good too but the problem with this competition is that engine needs to breath through 20mm venturi, so that limits things, and a big bore might not run faster due to lack of air.

appreciate that this might not be the best place, I'll check out OldSkoolSuzuki and try giving A&A a ring this week end.

Cammo, thank you for the graph:
As of the valve overlap, anyone know how hard it would be to shift the camshafts with respect to each other?
as far as i understand the fact that its a V4 means the exhaust and intake cams are independant.
Just worried about boost leaking through the overlap.
Is it a keyhole attachement? how do the straight cut gears attach to the shafts (can't take engine appart yet, currently in transport and my bike is being serviced

So Ti crank/rod in order? I believe I have heard of someone upgrade such parts in the US, I'll look around.
I guess the parts arn't designed to take any moment of torque from outside the casing.

Cammo, for a EFI I would need
Injectors
Fuel Pump
Fuel Pressure Regulator
Engine control unit
Wiring Harness
Crank/Cam Position: Hall effect sensor
Airflow: MAF sensor, sometimes this is inferred with a MAP sensor
Exhaust Gas Oxygen: oxygen sensor, EGO sensor, UEGO sensor

Definitly would be an impressive set up, but would a CDI not be sufficient?

[SCAT]

Not sure i understand Fi - FCR terms/ relating to throttle body (TB?) lol too many abreviations!

[Cammo]

As of the valve overlap, anyone know how hard it would be to shift the camshafts with respect to each other?

Is it a keyhole attachement? how do the straight cut gears attach to the shafts

The gears are welded to (or part of?) the camshafts so they're not adjustable. They can be made adjustable (RLR can do it) but it's not a simple process.

as far as i understand the fact that its a V4 means the exhaust and intake cams are independant.

Not sure what you mean? These engines have separate intake and exhaust cams just as most 16v 4 cylinder engines do, the V4 is no different but you have twice the number of camshafts as it has 2 heads.

So Ti crank/rod in order? I believe I have heard of someone upgrade such parts in the US, I'll look around.

Mike Norman from g-force USA (member here) has done a lot of this hard work for you. In my opinion he's the leader when it comes to development of these engines chasing big power. Check out his blog which has info on the evolution of engine parts: http://mngforce.typepad.com/

for a EFI I would need
Injectors
Fuel Pump
Fuel Pressure Regulator
Engine control unit
Wiring Harness
Crank/Cam Position: Hall effect sensor
Airflow: MAF sensor, sometimes this is inferred with a MAP sensor
Exhaust Gas Oxygen: oxygen sensor, EGO sensor, UEGO sensor

Definitly would be an impressive set up, but would a CDI not be sufficient?

You'd need throttle bodies (TB) too, unless you want to gut the carbs and turn them into the throttle bodies - this wouldn't make any sense to me if you're willing to spend the time, effort and (big) money of fuel injecting and supercharging the engine only to skimp on something this basic.

Yes, you could use a cdi to control ignition, but again a combined fuel/ignition engine control unit (ECU) would be the logical way to go for such a complex project since you already need an ECU to control fuel.

Adding bits and pieces to a vfr/rvf engine - which it sounds like what you want to do - is not the correct way to look at this project. If you're needing to invest the time and lots of money to even get this half done you should do it properly and plan the project holistically.

Not to discourage you, but supercharging an already injected 600cc engine (regardless of 20mm restrictor) is a much more realistic and cheaper option, and no doubt even this would throw up many challenges, whilst giving you lots to learn along the way. For example, stronger rods and crank for the vfr engine will cost upwards of a £2000... you might get away with standard parts on a new 600cc engine.

Good luck with it and keep us posted of any progress.

[Maelstrom]

CV carbs are good candidates for "blow through" forced induction. Certainly a huge saving in time and money compared to fitting a custom fuel injection system (aaaaargh). 'Carbs in a Box' has to be the easy route. If you consider the alternative method of connecting the carbs to the pressurised intake chamber then don't forget you must also consider the throttle shaft seals. These seem to be a mystery on the V4 and my guess is that they are just a felt seal. These people have double sided seals for the Mikunis
http://www.motorcyclecarbs.com/Throttle ... s_C680.cfm (the 4th one down the list) Something like that would be needed for your project.
Of course you will have to test that the floats, hoses, joints, o-rings etc can handle the extra air and fuel pressure.

One more point, I am sure you know, and that is that load squares at the rpm. Pushing 100hp out at 8000 rpm is nothing like doing the same thing at 14000rpm. With moderate boost and a conservative redline you may not have to consider that your engine will have to be indestructible. You will need a good gearbox and Carillo rods are like engine insurance. IMHO
cheers

[CHR15]

you'd save yourself a lot of issues, if you used 2 small ball bearing turbo's rather than an sc.

roots blowers are very inefficient. they generate a lot of heat and suck serious power, i have an eaton m62 strapped to my bandit and (if my maths are half decent) it will be drawing around 20hp at the crank when it's producing enough flow to maintain 1bar on the inlet side.

as has been said, cv carbs are a piece of piss to set up for boost, the most intriguing thing would be making a decent plenum with the way that the carbs sit all funny.

if you did go for turbo's as long as you spec'd them right, you shouldn't need to intercool, which would help with any 'lag' issues.

i wouldnt worry too much about timing and overlap ect.. just decide how much boost you want and modify the cr to suit, the only issue youve got is with the gear driven cams, you cant just space out the head or block (if they use separate barrels?)

maybe certain models use pistons with a lower deck to pin height? or depending how thick the crowns are, you could skim the tops of the pistons.


what ever you think it'll cost, double it. and treble however long you think it'll take you to make it.