bit of a stupid question.. Rear brake

[Neosophist]

dont agree with that tbh, any braking stands you up its just cos the rear is so fantasticly shit it dosnt make much effect and I dont do much slow town manuvering, and if im too hot into a corner I just lean over more

and rear brake wont help your turning, turning on a closed throttle will but tbh alot of corners you can take pinned on a 400 if you've got the tyre feedback and know the road well

Not to sound condescending but using the Rear break can help your turning, it's not becuase it's 'shit' as my rear break is fantastically 'good' by all accounts of what some peopel put up with. However, from the way you have dismissed the rear brake as being totally useless I don't think you have enough riding experience yet and could learn a great deal by utilising it.

I was going to write my own reply but i think this sums up rear braking while cornering quite well... i've highighted in bold why its better to use the rear brake conering technique.

There are experts out there--by which I mean former champion racers or trainers of current and former champions--who advocate all three of the braking techniques mentioned; i.e., doing all braking before beginning a turn (e.g., Keith Code); using the rear brake in the turn itself (e.g., Nick Ienatsch) and using the front brake in the turn itself (e.g., Freddie Spencer). All of these techniques work, although people will go to their graves arguing about which is best.

It is absolutely fine to use no braking after the turn-in point in a corner, and to use countersteering as your only means of turning the bike. However, the effect of braking after turn-in ("trail braking") is, as another poster has stated, to change the bike's rake and trail and to compress the suspension; in other words, exactly what countersteering does.

While braking with either the front or rear brake will transfer weight forward and precipitate this effect, it is more pronounced with the front brake, for obvious reasons.

This is an advanced technique. Using the front brake where traction is compromised is a good way to cause a crash. Regarding Jerry "Motorman" Palladino, I have not seen his video, but will force someone to buy it for me for Christmas. However, I've seen his ads many times, and his techniques appear to be marketed to riders of "cruisers and large touring motorcycles." I think he is largely concerned with low-speed maneuvering, not sport riding, although I will reserve judgment until I have seen the video.

Source(s):
Nick Ienatsch, Advanced Sport Riding Techniques
Keith Code, A Twist of the Wrist volumes I & II
Lee Parks, Total Control
David Hough, Proficient Motorcycling, volumes I & II
Reg Pridmore, Smooth Riding the Pridmore Way
Motorcycle Design and Technology, Gaetano Coco
California Superbike School, levels I & II
12+ years of riding (emphasis in canyon carving)

[Spike16]

well I know for a fact the rear brakes on ducati's motogp bikes are only their to get through scruit and stonner and hayden never use them and they are so lightweight that they do practicly nothing.

and your quote said they are three different schools of braking, and all the riders qoted are very successful and far better riders than you or me will ever be, different things work for different people

personally I dont hang off the bike much and lean the bike alot but others say you need to hang off and keep the bike upright, its all personal riding styles and different things suit different people

I used the rear brake when I did my test for the u turn but as my bike wont physicly do a u turn theirs no reason for me to use the rear brake, I can ride slow and do any real life manouver on just clutch control and balance

for me adding rear brake into a corner adds too much shit into the mix, on track or fast road riding my rear foot is always toes on peg and pushing down on the peg so the brake lever is never usable anyway

[Cammo]

and rear brake wont help your turning, turning on a closed throttle will but

Yes it will. Turning on a closed throttle will lead to crash because of the forward weight transfer if you're already near the grip limit, trailing the rear is a lot less risky.

There are experts out there--by which I mean former champion racers or trainers of current and former champions--who advocate all three of the braking techniques mentioned.

All of these techniques work, although people will go to their graves arguing about which is best.

^ That's about what I know!


p.s. Hayden uses a shed load of rear brake on the Duc, stoner also. Most motogp riders use it, although a couple don't at all. This is well documented in the motogp books and dvd rider interviews.

[Spike16]

turning on a closed throttle is a very well known technique for speeding up turning, whenever you see a race bike mid corner shooting flames it will be from a closed throttle and the idea is to gradually closed then open the throttle (just very quickly), this reduces the gyroscopic effect of the crank and allows a faster change of direction

you dont just slap the throttle closed, that will cause alot of engine braking and like you say load the front end and cause you to crash

I really cant be arsed to get into this but if you want il dig out the article on stoners championship winning bike and photocopy what they say about the rear brake

[CMSMJ1]

Do it Spike.. bit of light reading does the trick.

Hayden has a mahoosive rear rotor on his MotoGP bikes as he uses it a lot.

I don't use mine at all and cannot imagine thinking of dragging the rear brake when I am in a corner too fast. I would fall off trying to make my feet move to it..lol

My uber skills allow me to drag a decent bit of front brake as I trust my moto not to throw me off...up to now it hasn't done it to me...I guess once it has done I'll not be as confident.

I like the idea of a sniff of rear to bleed some speed off but for now...I don't use it.

ref the original question - I have ridden for most of the year without fluid in my rear system...not rammed anyone or botched any hill starts (this is Sheffield...it is bloody hilly)

If you want to do it..then do it..just don't cause an accident or you are screwed for riding a bike that is not fit for the road

[Neosophist]

personally I dont hang off the bike much and lean the bike alot but others say you need to hang off and keep the bike upright, its all personal riding styles and different things suit different people

Hanging off the bike DOES make a difference. But it won't make you go any faster until you are regularly dragging metal on your bike. Most 'street' riders tend to lean off as it feels better for them, then there are people (like yourself from what you say) who are more comfortable staying inline with the bike as it leans. Theres no difference speed wise until you are scraping.

However if you do drag metal (My NC24 is a pain for its low pegs) then leaning off the bike will increase the angle as which the bike interacts with the ground, giving you more clearance for metal parts at any given speed. This allows you to increase your lean angle / speed without dragging pegs / whatever else drags, thus you can take a corner at higher speed.

So in a nutshell, unless you are dragging metal its no faster than staying on the bike. Unless you have rear-sets on a 400 though I've found hanging off is pretty much necessary when nailing corners (unless you like the scraping of your bike across the ashphalt) I managed to scrape my lower fairings somehow on an odd camber bend.

I used the rear brake when I did my test for the u turn but as my bike wont physicly do a u turn theirs no reason for me to use the rear brake, I can ride slow and do any real life manouver on just clutch control and balance

It wont' do a u turn? That doesn't sound very safe/good??

I don't think this rider could perform these moves without the use of the rear brake...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTO2s7wyrFs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSYaxiS0d6c

But at the end of the day we all ride with whatever feels best for you. I'd be lost without my rear. I just feel that simply saying the rear brake hardly works / isn't useful isn't really true. (^_^)

[Spike16]

I decking the rearsets crash bungs and fairings out at thruxton but the rear ride height needed jacking up, the reason i dont lean off is cos you can get tucked in quicker if you more inline, round a big lean corner my head will be next to the tank but im quick to haul my self back and tuck in, when powers low aero is were its at lol

Its not that i dont think the rear brake will do anything I just dont personally ever use it and find i can get round the corner as fast as anyone I know so see no reason to use it

been hunting for the mag and cant find anything yet but will keep looking mark , it was a test of stoners championship winning bike in a wuite engineering oriantated magazine that my dad picked up at work, cant even remember the mag name