Dyno Disappointment.....

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Neosophist
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Re: Dyno Disappointment.....

Post by Neosophist » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:26 am

I think your maybe a tad too hung up too much on the A/F ratio.

Too many people tune bikes solely to A/F ratio... the NC30 generally 'feels' better slightly richer than the stochiemetric 14.1.

Have a word with kevprojex, he's dyno's lots of 30's and 35's so should be able to advise you what their A/F ratios are.

I believe his own 35 which is now making 65hp at the rear wheel runs around 12.5:1 overall. Which is what makes the best curve and power delivery after lots of runs.. the NC30 he owned was the same. My NC24 and ZXR400 all rode nicer when slightly richer. Just felt a bit more crisp.

The only change between the 89 and the 90+ bikes besides the 110's all around to 115/118's is that the front emulsion tubes are slightly different... rear emulsion tubes are the same, as is the exhaust, so Honda basically upped the size from 110 -> 118.

While the jets you have are probably flowing different I don't think your A/F is too bad, maybe slightly leaner.. but between 12.5 - 13.5 at WOT seems to yield best overal results.
As far as power is concerned, I'll say only this: Every vehicle is different. If one wants to find the best air/fuel ratio for generating power, one should put the vehicle on a dyno and test it. Many believe that a particular ratio will result in the most power under any circumstances, and that belief is just too narrow-minded. There are far too many factors involved to make such blanket statements
To do a proper plug chop you need to do some high speed running at WOT (when your on full mains) and kill the engine with the switch / clutch in and then inspect the plugs. Even then this isn't perfectly reliable.
As far as power is concerned, I'll say only this: Every vehicle is different. If one wants to find the best air/fuel ratio for generating power, one should put the vehicle on a dyno and test it. Many believe that a particular ratio will result in the most power under any circumstances, and that belief is just too narrow-minded. There are far too many factors involved to make such blanket statements
Back to back dyno's with the 110's and the RO jets will give you an idea of how your bike is performing on both setups... besides AF ratio though look at the torque and power curves too.
When performing dyno testing and tuning, one must ask oneself "what am I trying to achieve?" If maximum power is the goal, then just look at the power curve first and make adjustments accordingly. The fuel curve is only used as an aid. Many NA race car owners tune in this manner, and by the time they are done the air/fuel ratio is sometimes between 14:1 and 15:1. This is usually not considered "safe" by anyone, but most race car teams accept the fact that they usually change the engine at least once during a typical season. Most street car owners are willing to sacrifice the 3 - 5 hp that they might get by running so lean and instead opt for an air/fuel ratio that will help their engine last for many years
The bikes are frugal enough to run without making them super lean... my 115/118 setup (stock silencer) i generally get around 270km from a tank, which is 167miles, based on 13 litres of fuel (Approx) this is 58mpg!

I think amorti might be fairly on the mark as usual, maybe 1 size down from your current jets.

PS: Do you have the emulsion tubes in the correct carbs and are your float heights all good?

Oh and the super-lean at the start might be your bike not being able to clear all the gas from the silencer causing a 'false' lean reading.. quite common on smaller cylindered bikes.
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Re: Dyno Disappointment.....

Post by amorti » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:31 am

phil x wrote:Hmmm, interesting thought.
I had considered sourcing some 112s from Rick & swapping as you suggest but thought I'd go back to stock & go from there. Past experience has shown me that running a leaner than normal practice, can produce good results with far better fuel economy - sometimes without power sacrifice too!

Phil
I have been trying the following: 110 Keihin (off-the-scale lean) to 120 DJ (desperately rich, wouldn't even pull through) then 110 K drilled out to 1.2-ish mm (quite close, bit lean) and now have 112 DJ in there, very slightly lean but pretty close - will pull to end well with choke. I reckon 114 DJ will be the one.

So you see, once you start changing brands you just end up removing all frame of reference. I really think that you should get the 112's from RO, maybe order a pair of 110's at the same time as they really are cheap, and do as suggested. Or put 110/112 in and see if you're happiest with that, then potentially go for the middle option if it's too lean.

It's not that far off at all, you are at the final tweaking stage now. Going back to Keihin jets throws away your first dyno run and starts from scratch, probably on a worse setting.

In a purely theoretical way.. you are at 12.1:1, and you (probably, as Neo suggests) want about 12.7:1. In order to get from 12.1 to 12.7, you want (12.7/12.1=) 1.050 times as much fuel. 5% more fuel. So try one combination lower first, would be my suggestion.

Or fit a race can :P

When you have the carbs off, I would definitely consider opening the air screws 1/4 of a turn to richen up the tickover. 17:1 is a bit scary.

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Re: Dyno Disappointment.....

Post by phil x » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:03 am

I have already fitted the 110s & while at it opened the pilots 1/4 turn :-)

My reasoning for refitting the original mains; When I ordered the 115/118 from RO, my bike had a big hole at 6-7krpm & sometimes stuttered at about 9-10k. The fuel tap wasn't working right & upon opening the carbs, the float heights were all over the place, pilots ranged from 1.5 to 2.75 turns out & 1 front/rear emulsion tubes had been swapped over......
I put all back to stock & nearly left the mains in place (but decided to fit the ROs).
Now I'm just curious as to how the bike runs with a stock setup!!!
Removing the carbs & fiddling is part & parcel of the joy of bike ownership, I wouldn't mind a dyno at each stage as proof but then it starts becoming expensive!.

I'll get back when I have had a good run out on the bike.... Hopefully this weekend to Stafford!

Phil

Do you have the dyno printouts to post up???
I like pictures :P

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Re: Dyno Disappointment.....

Post by scooble » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:50 am

14.7:1 is the stoichometric ratio, which basicly means that the fuel is being used efficiently, but not necessarily the best power. Some engines run at 15 to 16:1 at light load, but all should run at about 12.5:1 at full load depending on the limitation of the compression ratio. I've even run some development high compression engines at 10:1 at full load sometimes to keep them cool and stop them detonating.

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Re: Dyno Disappointment.....

Post by amorti » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:53 am

phil x wrote:I have already fitted the 110s & while at it opened the pilots 1/4 turn :-)

My reasoning for refitting the original mains; When I ordered the 115/118 from RO, my bike had a big hole at 6-7krpm & sometimes stuttered at about 9-10k. The fuel tap wasn't working right & upon opening the carbs, the float heights were all over the place, pilots ranged from 1.5 to 2.75 turns out & 1 front/rear emulsion tubes had been swapped over......
I put all back to stock & nearly left the mains in place (but decided to fit the ROs).
Now I'm just curious as to how the bike runs with a stock setup!!!
Removing the carbs & fiddling is part & parcel of the joy of bike ownership, I wouldn't mind a dyno at each stage as proof but then it starts becoming expensive!.

I'll get back when I have had a good run out on the bike.... Hopefully this weekend to Stafford!

Phil

Do you have the dyno printouts to post up???
I like pictures :P
I am in the same place as you with regards to testing, verification, etc. vs. cost.

I am getting bored of pulling the carbs, but at least on my IL4 with no fairings, I can remove the tank, airbox, carbs; change the jets; and refit everything within 40 minutes. I don't fancy it on a V4, it seems a lot more complex!

I also like pretty pictures. However I never got one back from my first dyno run, and to be honest the A/F was so far off that it didn't teach me much anyway.

IMHO 6-7 would be where it's coming on to the needle, and 9-10 would be where it's coming on to the main. I think your gut feeling that it was lean on the main would have been close to the mark. Enlarging the main does also alter the fueling on the needle, whether or not it's meant to.

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Re: Dyno Disappointment.....

Post by Neosophist » Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:36 pm

phil x wrote:I have already fitted the 110s & while at it opened the pilots 1/4 turn :-)

My reasoning for refitting the original mains; When I ordered the 115/118 from RO, my bike had a big hole at 6-7krpm & sometimes stuttered at about 9-10k. The fuel tap wasn't working right & upon opening the carbs, the float heights were all over the place, pilots ranged from 1.5 to 2.75 turns out & 1 front/rear emulsion tubes had been swapped over......
I put all back to stock & nearly left the mains in place (but decided to fit the ROs).
Now I'm just curious as to how the bike runs with a stock setup!!!
Removing the carbs & fiddling is part & parcel of the joy of bike ownership, I wouldn't mind a dyno at each stage as proof but then it starts becoming expensive!.

I'll get back when I have had a good run out on the bike.... Hopefully this weekend to Stafford!

Phil

Do you have the dyno printouts to post up???
I like pictures :P

The stock setup runs really well, often with a slight hole betwee 6-7000rpm which is why people raise the needles.

Your changing lots of things that alter different parts of the rev-range.

Float heights / pilot screws will alter idle mixture and how well (or not) the bike will take throttle. The pilot screws will alter the mixture over the entire rev-range but not dramatically, main issue is idle circuit.

The 6-7000rpm range is when the needles are transitioning in the main-jet. Raising or lowering the needles alters this area.

Full wide open throttle above 8000rpm is where your main-jets are on fully.

If you really want to get it sorted

http://www.factorypro.com/tech/carbtune ... gines.html

Have a read of that until you understand (if you don't already) how each part works and follow it in that order.

Dyno's are great for fine-tuning but you should always ride the bike too (and not religiously tune by A/F ratio!)

Wouldn't Kehin jets would make it easier?

With Jap carbs 115/118 for stock / 1/2 systems and 118/120 for full systems has been tried and tested many times for best results.

oh, fwiw the UK NC30 came with FR 122 RR 120 but I don't know how different the carbs are from the JAP carbs so don't go too much by that :P

Raise the needles only if you have a hole around the transition area.

2.0 - 2.5 pilot screws
6.8mm float height.

Bobs your uncle fanny's your aunt! ;)

Been out on mine again today now it's back together... still running clean, no traces of soot near the end-can (stock system) and plugs are light golden tan.

115/118 kehin jets.. 89K (original 110) emulsion tubes (which i'm guessing is similar to your bike?)

Found a cheap dyno place here so will get it done and give you the a/f graph you seek! :-)
xivlia wrote:i dont go fast on this bike so really do not need a rear brake.. /
vic-vtrvfr wrote:Ask xivlia for help, he's tackled just about every problem u could think of...

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Re: Dyno Disappointment.....

Post by arsey30 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:11 pm

Neosophist wrote: With Jap carbs 115/118 for stock / 1/2 systems and 118/120 for full systems has been tried and tested many times for best results.

oh, fwiw the UK NC30 came with FR 122 RR 120 but I don't know how different the carbs are from the JAP carbs so don't go too much by that :P
Not only larger jets in UK carbs but the richer ones in the fronts, not rear like Japanse spec bike. Why?
The emulsion tubes are different too.

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Re: Dyno Disappointment.....

Post by Neosophist » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:28 pm

arsey30 wrote:
Neosophist wrote: With Jap carbs 115/118 for stock / 1/2 systems and 118/120 for full systems has been tried and tested many times for best results.

oh, fwiw the UK NC30 came with FR 122 RR 120 but I don't know how different the carbs are from the JAP carbs so don't go too much by that :P
Not only larger jets in UK carbs but the richer ones in the fronts, not rear like Japanse spec bike. Why?
The emulsion tubes are different too.
Yep I figured the emulsion tubes were different, any idea if the air-circuitary is different too?
xivlia wrote:i dont go fast on this bike so really do not need a rear brake.. /
vic-vtrvfr wrote:Ask xivlia for help, he's tackled just about every problem u could think of...

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Re: Dyno Disappointment.....

Post by philfingers » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:35 pm

arsey30 wrote: Not only larger jets in UK carbs but the richer ones in the fronts, not rear like Japanse spec bike. Why?
The emulsion tubes are different too.
I think that info is wrong Uk bikes are 120F and 122R, see Cammo's guide for details

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Re: Dyno Disappointment.....

Post by amorti » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:46 pm

philfingers wrote:
arsey30 wrote: Not only larger jets in UK carbs but the richer ones in the fronts, not rear like Japanse spec bike. Why?
The emulsion tubes are different too.
I think that info is wrong Uk bikes are 120F and 122R, see Cammo's guide for details
It is rumoured that the UK bike's exhaust is free-er flowing. But even then, it would have to be some kind of magical baffling system to be more open than a full system on a JDM bike. Has anyone spotted differences in the airbox? It does have an oil cooler so maybe it runs cooler? This would maybe require a little more fuel? Other than that there must be some pretty big differences in the carbs.

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