rvf carbs - emulsion tubes

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zymon
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rvf carbs - emulsion tubes

Post by zymon » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:14 pm

the stock tubes have different hieght holes on the lower row but when it comes to the hrc kit for the rvf carbs why do they have the holes all in the same configuration? ithought the back bank would still run different still to the front :?:

Basically i am having trouble trying to dial out a turd of a flatspot at 8.5 -9k revs. My state of tune is - skimmed down heads , ported and flowed , rvf carbs with full hrc kit, carbon copy air tray, some form of after market airbox - bigger and big mouthed scoop on it, full left / right exit exhaust system.

once above the spot it hoons, using 150 and 152 mains atm, used smaller jets down to 132/135's and initially started off with the hrc start point, b needles ,142 jets ( i think ) but even then it felt asthmatic a bit top end. So i think my mains are right ?

One thing i did notice was the smaller my mains were the lower and weaker the flat spot was but now i have the big mj's its quite a trough to ride through.

Anyone got any ideas where to start ? would going the ignitech boxes be a good start as my engine is in a fair state of tune ( even tps switch it?? )

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Re: rvf carbs - emulsion tubes

Post by G-MAN » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:16 pm

I'd say it's not the main jet is more a case of needle hight and diameter A, B, C trail and error ;)

Follow steps in order....First, dial in:

1. Top end (full throttle / 7.5k to redline -
Best Main Jet must be selected before starting step 2 (needle height)!
Select Best Main Jet
To get the best, most even top end power (full throttle/after 7500 rpm), select the main jet that produces the hardest pull at high rpm.
If the bike pulls harder at high rpm when cold and less hard when fully warmed up, the main jet is too large. Install a smaller main jet and retest until you find the main jet that pulls the hardest at high rpm when fully warmed up. This must be done first - before moving on to the other tuning ranges.
If the bike doesn't pull well at high rpm when cold and gets only slightly better when fully warmed up, the main jet is too small.
In order to properly tune the midrange and low rpm carburetion, THE MAIN JET MUST FIRST BE PROPERLY SELECTED after 10 to 15 minutes of hard use!
Do not pay too much attention to the low-end richness when you are changing main jets - you still need to be using the main jets that produce the best power at high rpm. You will deal with the low-end / cruise later - after step 2.
2. Midrange (full throttle /5k-7k)
Step 1 (Best Main Jet) must be selected before starting step 2!
Select best needle clip position
To get the best power at full throttle / 5k-7k rpm, adjust the needle height, after you have already selected the best main jet.
If the engine pulls better or is smoother at full throttle/5k-7k in a full throttle roll-on starting at <3k when cool but soft and/or rough when at full operating temperature, it is too rich in the midrange and the needle should be lowered.
If the engine pulls better when fully warmed up but still not great between 5k-7k, try raising the needle to richen 5k-7k.
If the engine pulls equally well between 5k-7k when cooler as compared to fully warmed up, the needle height is probably properly set.
Do not pay too much attention to the low-end richness when you are changing needle clip positions - you still need to be using the clip position that produces the best full throttle / 5k-7k power in conjunction with the main jets (Step 1) that produce the best power at high rpm. You will deal with the low-end / cruise next.
3. Low end (full throttle / 2k-3k)
Step 1 (Best Main Jet) and Step 2 (needle height) must be selected before starting step 3!
Float height (AKA fuel level & how to..)
To get best low-end power, set float height (fuel level) so that the engine will accept full throttle, without missing or stumbling, in 2nd gear from 2.5k to 3k rpm at minimum.
Float heights, unless otherwise specified in the installation guide, are measured from the "gasket surface" of the carb body to the highest part of the top of the float - with the float tang touching but not compressing the float valve spring.
If the engine has a "wet" rhythmic, soggy area at full throttle / 3k-4k rpm, that gets worse as the engine heats up, lower the fuel level by resetting the float height 1mm greater (if the original was 13mm - go to 14mm). This will lower the fuel level, making full throttle / 2k-3k rpm leaner.
If the engine is "dry" and flat between 2k to 3k rpm, raise the fuel level.
Example: change float height from 15mm to 14mm to richen up that area.
REMEMBER, since the main jet WILL affect low speed operation, the MAIN JET has to be within 1 or 2 sizes of correct before final float setting.
Warning: If the engine is left with the fuel level too high,, the engine may foul plugs on the street and will be "soft" and boggy at part throttle operation. Adjust Floats to raise/ lower the Fuel Level.
Base settings are usually given if a particular application has a history of fuel level criticalness. The Fuel level height in the float bowl affects full throttle/low rpm and, also, richness or leanness at cruise/low rpm.
Reference: a bike that runs cleanly at small throttle openings when cold, but starts to show signs of richness as it heats up to full operating temperature, will usually be leaned out enough to be correct if the fuel level is LOWERED 1mm. Check out and RESET all: Suzuki (all), Yamaha (all) and Kawasaki (if low speed problems occur). Needless to say, FUEL LEVEL IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!!
If there are low-end richness problems, even after lowering the fuel level much more than 1.5mm from our initial settings, check for needle wear and needle jet (part of the emulsion tube). See Worn Needle and Worn Needle Jet diagram. It is VERY common for the brass needle jets (in the top of the "emulsion tube") in 36mm, 38mm and 40mm Mikuni CV carbs to wear out in as little as 5,000 miles. Check them for "oblong" wear - the needle jet orifice starts out round! Factory Pro produces stock replacement needle jets / emulsion tubes for 36mm and 38mm Mikuni carbs. Click here

zymon
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Re: rvf carbs - emulsion tubes

Post by zymon » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:43 pm

think i will try and use the 'a' needles in the rear and 'b' needles up front and try clip heights from mid point then. I just thought it was a bit odd having the flat spot so high up the band. Even tried stretching a pair of tights over the mouth of the airbox but it still flat spotted and then just died as i got to 10k ( worth a try ! - guess its not airbox turbulence then??? )

Why did the hrc emulsion tubes stay the same on front and rear banks though??

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Re: rvf carbs - emulsion tubes

Post by G-MAN » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:01 pm

Think its to do with the carb flowing better than the VFR and use the same needles in all carbs just raise the rear needles by 0.5mm A needles are the thinnest and C the thickest, if you follow the HRC Manual then you cant be far out just remember if you don't have the HRC cams you would not have to go the whole HRC way as they have different lift profile for more air in and out faster. Its best if do this on the Dyno to get best overall result etc :mrgreen:

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Re: rvf carbs - emulsion tubes

Post by zymon » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:34 pm

funny you should say that because as i was doing the carbs i thought, na im sticking with the same needles and dug out two washers ! A needles are the richest ya ? I stuck the a needles in on mid position and 2 washer under each rear carb.

hrc cams.... uber unobtainium ! making the cams adjustable would not give the same gains as the hrc ones as i presume they will have a different profile to std? i guess adj cams will just change the duration time to when they open and shut ?

the thing which puzzled me about the emulsion tubes is that with the std tubes on the rvf is that they still had different openings front banks to the rear, where as the hrc ones have them only at the top and 4 holes in total - my friend who used to tune up cars in the old days told me less holes in the tubes the richer it makes it ?

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Re: rvf carbs - emulsion tubes

Post by Neosophist » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:19 pm

zymon wrote: -snip-
my friend who used to tune up cars in the old days told me less holes in the tubes the richer it makes it ?
Taken from a weber forum when somebody asked about emulsion tubes...


it goes more or less like this:
the thicker the emulsion tube the less space there is around it and the hole where it is screwed in, so less gasoline gets past it. This is what you want in order to improve the transition, which is usually very rich (black plugs).
You are leaning out the low transition with a larger diameter emulsion tube.
When the signal gets stronger at high rpm the air corrector has more impact.
A larger air corrector will lean the mixture and a smaller air corrector will richen.
Here you want to richen the mixture at high rpm.
The holes in the emulsion tube work like this: The air that is pulled through the air corrector jet passes through the holes in the emulsion tube out to where the gasoline flows out of the main jet into the aireation channel before being drawn into the aux venturi. The more air you allow into here, the leaner the mixture is.
If the holes are at the top, it will lean the mixture at low rpm during the transition. If the holes are at the bottom, the aireation will ocurr at a very strong signal, so it will lean out at high rpm.
So here you want the holes at the top: more aireation and leaner low transition.
This all works on a BB only with 40mm venturi (or larger, havent tried jet), otherwise there is not enough air and you will be screwing up with the wrong main jet and a terrible transition.
Got it?
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vic-vtrvfr wrote:Ask xivlia for help, he's tackled just about every problem u could think of...

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Re: rvf carbs - emulsion tubes

Post by superlite » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:20 pm

I get around this flat spot on my hrc carbs (nc30 though) by using #40 pilot jets. It gets rid of it entitelyt.

The pilots flow fuel all throughout the rev range (not just at low revs as commonly misconcepted) so you'll need to lower your main jet size* to suit to compensate for this extra fuel. You will also need to lean your pilot screws as you'll have a shed load more fuel going in at low revs.

Forget muckinmg around with the needles, they have the least effect of any carb part.

I would try: #40 pilots, 145 mains all round, pilot screw on very lean setting (don't know what this is on rvf sorry!).



* The hrc manual recommends 148/152 mains as a starting point with #35 pilot jets, so yours sounds a fair bit lean.
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Re: rvf carbs - emulsion tubes

Post by G-MAN » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:30 pm

Superlite,
(The hrc manual recommends 148/152 mains as a starting point with #35 pilot jets, so yours sounds a fair bit lean.)
Now the HRC pilots is 35 and so is the standard so why would you go and say that its should be changed and in the same breath you say follow the HRC ,you say do and don't now which is 35 or 35 :blah:

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Re: rvf carbs - emulsion tubes

Post by G-MAN » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:36 pm

Neo, that makes good sens there :up: and very interesting for all to have a better pic of how carbs work :clap:

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Re: rvf carbs - emulsion tubes

Post by superlite » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:39 pm

G-MAN wrote:Superlite,
(The hrc manual recommends 148/152 mains as a starting point with #35 pilot jets, so yours sounds a fair bit lean.)
Now the HRC pilots is 35 and so is the standard so why would you go and say that its should be changed and in the same breath you say follow the HRC ,you say do and don't now which is 35 or 35 :blah:
Just telling you what will work instead of cutting and pasting carb tuning tips. 8-)
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