Advice needed for a racing car project

[Haldane]

Hi all,
I'm a first year engineering student in the UK and I've found myself involved in the university racing team (I wonder how that happened!!) To be blunt, I've never ridden a bike (you may hurl abuse now). The racing team I'm involved in competes in something called Formula Student (FSAE), where Universities across the world design and build a single seater racing car (generally powered by a bike engine).

So basically I was looking for some advice on our potential choice of engine for future years. We are thinking a RVF400 and wondered if any of you have any comments. Been reading through the G-force blog, would be pretty cool to get some of their developments into the engine!!

Thanks Alex

[Cammo]

I guess it mostly depends on what your competitors are using and the required power/torque characteristics.

The v4 engine has a fair bit going for it (compact size, reliability) but some downsides too (similar weight as a 600cc engine, complex exhaust routing, only 60 hp).

As stunning as the g-force project is, realistically, tuning the rvf engine to beyond 70 hp will be extremely expensive. I would rather go for a 600cc engine with efi which will easily have over 110 hp with basic tuning.

Boring yes, but more cost effective and you'll learn more applicable industry skills tuning an engine with modern electronic controls.

[scotjell]

V8 2xhyabusa engines seen it at the NEC awsome!!

[Haldane]

Most people use the CBR600, Yamaha R6, or the Suzuki GSXR. We are limited to 610cc, and all of the airflow into the engine has to pass through a 20mm restrictor plate after the throttle body. Our lecturers who run the project dont want to use an engine that every other team uses, so its going to have to be something other than the ones listed above. I like the idea of a V-engine because we could bypass the gearbox and run the crankshaft straight into a transaxle of some sort. Any engines suitable?

[Bike_Nut]

I dont know how the judging is done - I think they do give points for innovative design etc but for anything other than a 600 inline four you are going to be way down on power, and for circuit racing power is king.

That said, if you want to be different what about either the Aprilia 550 twin, or a ducati air cooled later injected 620 motors. You could mount them 90deg and drive directly into a gearbox like an Alfa 33, hewland mk 9 etc but then any gearbox like this is heavy. You might be able to keep the bike gearbox and just run a custom diff unit. Use a 4wd rear diff as they are small and light - Subaru, Integrale etc and benefit from limited slip diff availability. This would depend on the ratios being compatible else its custom stuff which is expensive. The twin at 90deg gives you a very short package.

The aprilia engine is seriously light and powerful, 75hp no problem and some tuners making 90hp (claimed). The Ducati engine is cheap, torquey and probably good for 70hp without much hassle. You could do a water cooled hybrid based on 748 bores and ducati 400ss crank shaft, but that might take you closer to 650cc, I cant quite remember - I have seen a 650 like this but it could have had +2mm bores.

Look at the Guzzi's and BMW's - they run an inline arrangement so another gearbox is easy but they arnt that pwerful in small capacity versions, although the torque makes them very useable.

Having said all this, bet a 600 inline four still wins! Rather concentrate on the basics - Get a simple, light well designed spaceframe and go from there

[Bike_Nut]

Oops thought the limit was 620. Never mind, the Ducatis can be built in just about any capacity as there are so many bore stroke variations

[VFR400+]

As mentioned in your previous thread, we are designing for the sxv550. We put together a speadsheet of possible engine choices and that was the one that came out on top. Although there are other teams using them and that number seems to be growing year on year.

One option that was put forward that was quite different was the Honda NTV Revere, its a v-twin that although a similar sort of power as the nc30/35 , 56bhp, it has more torque than the sxv. Which we figured was more important than all out power as due to the 20mm restrictor, 19mm if using E85, then you will do very well to see 80bhp out of a R6, CBR RR. Have heard teams make nothing about 10,000rpm. We decided against it due to it being carb'd and about 20 years on and not as easy to get hold of as the V4 lumps.

Whereas the torque was reached low down the rev range, also due to the weight of the car this was more important.

Think Ive said enough as otherwise I will start giving away our key designs ideas!! :)

[micpec]

Earlier this year I met a few students of University of Eindhoven (NL), who competes in the FSAE championship, at my assignment where a small fair organized by Philips employees to show off there extraordinary vehicles. As Eindhoven area is listed in the top 7 of global regions of the smartest areas in the world (due to the many worldknown High Tech companies located there with their HQ sites for R&D, production etc.) they also invited Uni's to show off their projects. TUE showed their FSAE racers, models UE05 (GSXR600 engine) and UE06 (electric powered).

Really superb smart ass*s I spoke with and very sophisticated technology shown in practice.

Here is a link: http://universityracing.tue.nl/?page_id=33

FSAE...


By the way...the idea of building a small race car based on the NC V4 engine has been in mind for a while, but uncertain if such engine is suitable for the purposes of racing. Perhaps for a fun race car it is. For high performance use an 4-inline peaks out better but since I have tested several hybrid and electric cars I believe the direct available torque of an electric powered one is the future. Just my thoughts.

[Haldane]

Yeah I'm starting to have my doubts about the RVF400, Its a similar weight to the CBR600, but puts out a lot less horsepower!! the only advantage it has being a V-Engine is that it would be possible to run direct drive straight off the crankshaft into a transaxle with a racing clutch. The only way you could do that with the CBR is if you had a stupidly long back end behind the driver!!