Wrong Engine (Timing Disk/CDI) No ignition spark problem

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Blaack3
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Wrong Engine (Timing Disk/CDI) No ignition spark problem

Post by Blaack3 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:40 pm

So mates I just bought a quite decent engine off of ebay and just realized that it is not a 93' as my bike, but an older version of it instead.
I now face the following problem:
It just won't fire up. The CDI seems to be incompatible to the other timing disk, as I just found out.
An ebay seller offers a CDI for the timing disk with 5 identical tooth.
The seller also shows in an other picture, that the TDC of cyl. 1 is not the same place at both timing disks.

Is that really the case?
I can't imagine that Suzuki changed that much over the years.

Will changing the timing disk to the old timing disk fix the problem (the CDI worked great with the other engine)?
If it will fix it, I will have to borrow a rattle gun from somewhere to get the timing disk off.

Thank you in advance :)

SevenThreeSeven
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Re: Wrong Engine (Timing Disk/CDI) No ignition spark problem

Post by SevenThreeSeven » Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:43 am

just realized that it is not a 93' as my bike, but an older version of it instead.
Luckily, within the Bandit production years from 1991 to 1993 there are only two engine versions: One engine version (most people refer to it by its horsepower rating, which was 59 HP) was installed in the Bandit from 1991 through 1992. In 1993 Suzuki de-tuned the engine to 53 horsepower. One of the items that got changed to reduce the horsepower from 59 to 53 was a slight change in the ignition timing.

There are about 5 or 6 other differences between the 59 HP engine and the 53 HP engine, besides the ignition timing, but they are minor enough that they aren't "show stoppers" like the ignition timing is.
An ebay seller offers a CDI for the timing disk with 5 identical tooth.
59 HP engine = 1 long tooth and 5 identical tooth wheel, 53 HP engine = 1 long tooth, 3 medium teeth, 2 short teeth.
Image
Image
Will changing the timing disk to the old timing disk fix the problem (the CDI worked great with the other engine)?
If it will fix it, I will have to borrow a rattle gun from somewhere to get the timing disk off.
Interesting idea... You'd be running a 59 HP engine with the slightly reduced timing of the 53 HP engine. I've never heard of anyone putting this combination together but I think it would work fine.

But swapping out the CDI boxes would be easier. Simply plugging in a CDI box that matches the trigger wheel already installed on the bike would be much easier because getting the trigger wheel off of the engine is a bit of a task: the bolt in the middle of the trigger wheel is installed in the end of the crankshaft with red-colored thread locker so you have to use heat on the bolt to remove it, then you have to find a properly sized puller tool to remove the trigger wheel from the crankshaft end (after removing the bolt you have to screw it back in, but not completely, and then the puller tool is threaded onto the trigger wheel to provide leverage to pop the trigger wheel off the end of the crankshaft).

It's not an easy task. The trigger wheel fits very tightly onto the crankshaft. Look in the Suzuki Service Manual on pages 3-12 to 3-13:

Image

Image

Do you have the PDF file of the Bandit 400 Service Manual? I could email it to you if you want. Or you might be able to find it on the interwebs somewhere.

Blaack3
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Re: Wrong Engine (Timing Disk/CDI) No ignition spark problem

Post by Blaack3 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:53 am

Yes I do have the service manual.
Actually both engine should be the 50hp version that was sold in Germany (I live in Germany).
The one with 1 long, 3 medium and 2 short tooth was the original engine that came with the bike.
According to the manual the 93 German model still has the BST33SS carbs on. (but there is nothing written on the carbs)

But really interesting to hear, that would mean that the new engine is a slight upgrade.
I checked the internet for geniune used suzuki parts in Germany and did not even find 1 single CDI.
Meaning that there seems to be no CDI left in Germany or not a single one being sold right now.

Is there an aftermarket alternative for the CDI that I could get working?
The problem with the ebay offer is that it is one of these chinese ebay sellers that tend to sell crap on the internet.
And by any chance, do you know the correct CDI codes? I heard there are 4 different codes.

Now that I know about the extra horsepower and the struggle of getting that disk off, I really want to change the CDI :D


This is the chart i was referring to:
Image

SevenThreeSeven
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Re: Wrong Engine (Timing Disk/CDI) No ignition spark problem

Post by SevenThreeSeven » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:31 pm

Actually both engine should be the 50hp version that was sold in Germany (I live in Germany).
The one with 1 long, 3 medium and 2 short tooth was the original engine that came with the bike.
According to the manual the 93 German model still has the BST33SS carbs on. (but there is nothing written on the carbs)
Sorry, I didn't realize you were in a country where Suzuki was forced to install further horsepower restrictions, that's something I've never had to deal with on a Bandit. Do you know exacly how the German Model was restricted? I could be wrong but I seem to remember hearing/reading that the German model had some sort of modification to the carbs that limited it? Possibly a plastic flange at the top of the carb to prevent the CV slides from fully rising?

Example: A couple of guys in Germany discussing this issue (in German, mostly) with pictures.
http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/gsf-400- ... 83718.html

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Re: Wrong Engine (Timing Disk/CDI) No ignition spark problem

Post by Blaack3 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:47 pm

Yes that is in fact the case with my bike! :D
I can get 4 diphragm caps for about 100€ to derestrict that. But that would lead me to only extra 3 hp (from 50 to 53).
That would not really be worth it.

The spare engine (probably a 1991) should end up with 59hp, right?

Do you know whether these CDI are any good?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CDI-Derestrict- ... K0&vxp=mtr

They are relatively cheap.

I bet it is the same as this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Derestrict-Igni ... 2466810151



It clearly says "33900 - 10D30".
Isn't that a weird CDI? It might even be the "California only" CDI.
The 1991 German Bandit were sold with a "33900 - 10D00" CDI, which is not available right now.
One has been sould for 50$ a couple of months ago :(
I really want a geniune working part :D

SevenThreeSeven
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Re: Wrong Engine (Timing Disk/CDI) No ignition spark problem

Post by SevenThreeSeven » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:39 pm

I can get 4 diphragm caps for about 100€ to derestrict that. But that would lead me to only extra 3 hp (from 50 to 53). That would not really be worth it.
If that's how you feel about the situation I'd suggest swapping the trigger wheel out. As you mentioned earlier your current CDI works perfectly, so that's a good known condition and sticking with it would probably be a good thing to do rather than experimenting with Chinese boxes.

All you would have to do is swap out the trigger wheel from one engine to the other. Really not that bad if you're careful and use proper tools (or just something close to proper tools, I actually used a generic three-jaw puller to pop the trigger wheel off of my engine and I shop-built an approximation of the Rotor Holder for the opposite end of the crankshaft).

You'd end up with an interesting engine combination: '91-'92 engine that has the higher lift camshaft profile, and Germany restricted carbs, and '93 ignition timing. That combo would probably be a good sporty/lively setup (You'd just have to remember to do your valve adjustments to '91-'92 specification rather than to '93 spec).

It would be just a bit more engine than your old '93 motor was.

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Re: Wrong Engine (Timing Disk/CDI) No ignition spark problem

Post by Blaack3 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:56 pm

I really do not have the right tools for the job :( (I just have the 3 jaw puller you mentioned)

I messaged two sellers who offer CDI boxes.
Would the 33900-10D20 work aswell? I am trying to get a 10D00, but these are really rare! :(

If I get an offer for a genuine part for a proper price I will give it a try.
I could get rid of the plastic limitation in the diphragm caps for free with a dremel, which would lead me to the full 59hp with the proper CDI.

Does some1 in the forum by any chance have a leftover CDI or any experience with an aftermarket CDI? :(

ventYl
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Re: Wrong Engine (Timing Disk/CDI) No ignition spark problem

Post by ventYl » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:01 pm

I have aftermarket CDI in my 1991 Germany specced 59HP Bandit. It is of some south-american provenience. It was fitted even before I bought it back in Germany. I tried to swap it for my DIY refurbished England specced 1991 59HP Bandit and it worked well. The ignition box is of Pietcard brand.

Check the wirings. I might be wrong but I read that some post-93 bandits do have two additional wires coming out of gearbox cover to send the gear lever position to the CDI. It it used then to limit speed of bike to 170 km/h as per post-93 japan regulation for under 400 cc bikes.

Blaack3
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Re: Wrong Engine (Timing Disk/CDI) No ignition spark problem

Post by Blaack3 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:48 pm

I got that little thing up to 190kph- There are no wires coming from the gearbox aswell.
Mate your CDI is more than 1000 quid... damn it.. That for sure is expensive! :D

Do you know the CDI Codes for the 59hp specced ones?
I found a genuine CDI for 80 quid that might do the job.

As far as I know there are the following codes:
10D00 --> German 59hp spec 1991 (rare in Germany)
10D20 --> ? unknown
10D30 --> ? unknown

10D50 --> post 93 bikes 53hp spec
10D60 --> also 53hp

Either the 10D20 or the 10D30 must be the California spec one. I could get the 10D20 or the 10D30, but I am afraid I might get a California spec one, that won't work at all.

ventYl
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Re: Wrong Engine (Timing Disk/CDI) No ignition spark problem

Post by ventYl » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:38 am

well i never saw german specced OEM CDI (Pietcard CDI was installed since i've bought it) and the CDI in england specced 59Hp bandit has sticker completely wiped out.

the prices are very odd. are these in U$D? I guess that not because they are asking about 1000 $ for transistor ignitor for Jawa 350 Twin Sport which can be bought for about 120 Euro from Czech republic.


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