Charging system - again!

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speedy231278
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Charging system - again!

Post by speedy231278 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:04 pm

Just when I thought everything was fixed, and had been nice and reliable for ages, suddenly it wasn't any more! :-(

This weekend just gone, I went back home for the first time in about six weeks. As it had been a while, I made sure the bike would start on Friday night just in case the battery had decided to die while not being used, or had not been charged properly on my last trip. The bike chugged over on the starter for a little while longer than usual, however it was not laboured and is not uncommon if it's been left a while. I assume that this is fuel evaporation over time, and that everything between the tank and engine is sorting itself out.

Next morning, the bike started fine. Nothing untoward on my journey to play trains, with the exception that on one occasion I noticed the indicator repeated was flashing rapidly . I figured a visit to Halfrauds or similar was on the card on the way home because one had blown. Oddly, it only did it once, and behaved the rest of the time.

When I went to leave, I hit the starter button and literally nothing happened. No click from the solenoid, no buzz, no feeble whine from the starter. I said something like oh dear, and took my lid off to make sure it wasn't a case that I couldn't hear anything because I had it on and plugs in. It wasn't. Like you do, I tried again, and the solenoid fired, but the starter turned over with all the might of an asthmatic ant. Oh dear, I said again. Remembering a weird situation 18 months or more ago when something like this happened in really hot weather when I'd done a lot of sitting about in traffic, I waited another couple of minutes, and hit the starter again. It turned over with just enough gusto that a few pumps of the throttle had it catch, and I was able to start the journey home. Unfortunately, I was not going to get home without issue. Despite everything being normal on the way back, a few miles from home, I went to pull away at a roundabout, and the bike stalled. This is exactly what happened in the situation above, and the same issue occurred immediately afterwards - not enough power to energise the solenoid. All I got was a buzz, and after I waited a few mins to try again, it was clear the battery was flat as the starter had no guts even when the solenoid would play ball.

Fortunately, I had come to grief near a nice downhill side street, and I managed to paddle fast enough to bump the bike into life, and I got home. I left it running and grabbed my meter. At best, I measured 13V flat, but it was bouncing around 12.8 for the most part. I turned the bike off and measured the battery, the result was a whopping 12.2V. Despite that, when I tried to start it again, it fired up first time, the starter turning over very healthily like nothing was wrong.

A few months ago, I fitted Nightbreakers to the bike after doing the low beam relay mod. I have noticed a few times that the battery seems to sit at about 12.6V after use rather than a little higher as I would expect before the so called float charge wears off. I am wondering if I still need to make improvements to the charging system output as the extra 40W of load now I can run 60/55 as opposed to 60/35 means I'm running very close to discharge? Or maybe the battery is just knackered? I did test it not that long ago and it retained a good charge off the bike for a whole week, barely dropping a few hundredths of a volt after settling down from being charged. If a battery is low and being charged by the system, can it cause the voltage measured at the terminals to be decreased while the bike is running?

This weekend, I will yet again be investigating all the standard things, plus the indicators just to see if maybe one of them has shipped in something and is shorting to ground which might explain the odd flashing behaviour that one time. To recap, after previous events, the bike has a new reg/rec, plus new crimped and soldered connections for both the reg/rec and alternator, and in addition, the reg/rec output goes directly to the battery through a fused spur. Stator measured in spec for ohms and VAC across all pairs, and system output around 13.8VDC with a fully charged battery.

At this rate, I'm tempted to say sod it, and buy a new stator, RO trick switching reg/rec and something like a MotoBatt to eliminate all possibilites. This is getting really boring now!
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Morespeedvicar
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Re: Charging system - again!

Post by Morespeedvicar » Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:14 pm

Hi, I got a bit of a head ache so cant really read very well. Anyway, have you tried putting muiltmeter across the battery and turning on head lamps, and measure battery voltage? Only reason been my battery for me klr died other day, was fine day before, now has 12.2 no load volts and just over 6 with load!!!
Maybe worth taking stator out and having a look?
Good luck
Ian

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Re: Charging system - again!

Post by Rascal » Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:52 pm

Maybe if the bike has been stood a while in the cold weather it's been enough to kill your battery off? As it sounds like once the bike is up and running there isn't any problems (minus the indicator wobble). A new battery would be my first point of call before getting deep.

I can though recommend once of Rick's MOSFET r/r's. Very kind to your battery and wiring loom!

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jo
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Re: Charging system - again!

Post by jo » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:37 pm

I get the indicator problem sometimes. I just wiggle the wires in the indicator and it seems to be ok after that!

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Re: Charging system - again!

Post by Morespeedvicar » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:26 pm

Yeah mine does that with the front left indicator, must fix that one day..............

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speedy231278
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Re: Charging system - again!

Post by speedy231278 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:56 pm

Well, now I'm confused. Just got back home and tested before removing the battery for a charge. 14.3V at 3K with lights on (or off). Nothing changed on the bike and it's gained 1.5V output... maybe it's something going wrong when the bike is warm? Voltmeter going in tomorrow, maybe it'll give me some clues.
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Re: Charging system - again!

Post by Cammo » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:46 am

The voltmeter should help to work out what's going on.

I had similar electrical problems once, all tests checked out fine. I inspected the stator, one of the windings looked a bit suspicious (but tested fine), replaced it as a last resort and never had any further issues.

I would never recommend replacing anything that's not showing a fault, but sometimes these electrical gremlins lead us to do irrational things in attempts to sort it!
"It's just a ride" Bill Hicks

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Re: Charging system - again!

Post by vfrman » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:45 am

I would also check and clean your grounds...this might include replacing some of the ground wiring within the harness.

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Re: Charging system - again!

Post by speedy231278 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:25 pm

Reg/rec is connected directly to the battery, and the wiring loom earth point to the frame is spotless. Believe me, after all the issues in the past, I've got the message about crappy earths, I even did the ones for the coil packs while I was at it!

The stator checks out fine. Two pairs measured 0.7 ohm, the other was 0.6, no continuity to earth. At idle, each was producing mid 13.x volts AC, at higher rpm the output was middle 30s . One slight concern I have is that last time I went through all this they were 0.6 or 0.5 ohm, and high rpm output was middle 40s. I am wondering if the stator might be starting to break down a bit. However, it does not seem to be the primary cause of my issues.

With the voltmeter fitted, it showed that the odd issue with the charging system stopping working every now and then is still present. To recap, in one of my other bouts of experimentation, I discovered that if the bike was run to very high revs, say over 10K, all of a sudden there would be no output from the charging system, only for it to return at some random point later. However, I was unable to pinpoint the source of the issue for certain, despite suspecting the reg/rec. Yesterday, it did the same, and I was able to test the alternator before the issue went away, and it was producing the output as above. Reconnecting it resulted in the system immediately starting to charge again. So, I put the old one back in to see what would happen. Result was that within 100 yards the figure on the voltmeter started plummeting so fast that by the time I turned around and got back to the garage (literally less than half a mile) the battery was at about 10 volts, although as soon as I stopped the bike, it quickly recovered to 12. After a few mins longer, it just had enough guts to start the bike again.

Now, I'm a little confused here. Clearly, the old reg/rec is knackered. Just a few hundred yards was enough to prove that the system was running at such a low rate the battery was discharged in the space of a couple of minutes. But, I'm struggling to understand what the other reg/rec is up to. It seemingly stops charging for whatever reason, however the battery doesn't run down almost immediately. The voltage stays constant until it wakes back up again, unless you use the indicators or high beam. After I fitted the Nightbreakers, my issues seem to have returned. My conclusion is that the extra draw of these headlamps (2x55W instead of 2x35W) is enough that when the reg/rec stops producing much in the way of output, the battery starts depleting. In a good mood, with the lights on at idle, the output was over 13V. When it was sulking, I was measuring as little as 12.3V at the battery at idle. Lights off was over 13, but being an RVF the only way to do that is lightly press the start button...

I'm not happy with this reg/rec. It produces reasonable figures when it's happy, but seems to be suffering from mood swings and not all that dependable. It wasn't a hugely cheap one, but wasn't exactly expensive either. I doubt very much it's a clever switching one that only outputs when the battery needs topping up, especially when it clearly doesn't know when that is or it wouldn't have run down. Last time the battery was tested for retention, it held up very well over a week, and lost only a couple of hundredths of a volt at most. I do have a new one to break out if necessary, but I'm not utterly convinced the issue lies with it. Having said that, it's been caned a few times recently so it might be time to give it a retirement.

I'm saying sod it. The plan is now to tap up RO for one of his magical MOSFET reg/recs, and I'm half tempted to junk the stator while I'm at it and wire the thing directly to the reg/rec instead of using the loom. I gained some output when I took the reg/rec output back to the battery, so I think there may be merit in doing it. I do have a spare stator somewhere, but I'm not 100% certain that it's definitely an RVF one (seem to recall there's a slight size difference), and I haven't investigated the state of it anyway. I figure that if a new reg/rec and stator won't fix the issue, then nothing else will save for a new battery. At which point, I'll probably have a better charging system than the one the bike left the factory with!
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Re: Charging system - again!

Post by vfrman » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:47 pm

My mate in Italy was having a similar problem...his battery was dying after high RPMs. Turns out the stator wasn't up to the task. It might be worth investigating....
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