Battery Charging???

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speedy231278
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Re: Battery Charging???

Post by speedy231278 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:23 pm

"On to those 3 yellows, well never used a multi meter before for ohms so may have set it wrong (tip here would be good) all I got was a 1 on the far left of the screen on all of them"

With the plug disconnected, your AB, AC and BC resistance readings should be 0.1 to 1.0 Ohm. I'm pretty sure a 1 on the far left of the screen of a multimeter indicates the resistance is off the scale. It does not mean 1 Ohm, most meters start at a scale of 0-200 on the smallest range. You are measuring where the wires come through the vee of the engine, not where they go into the main harness. The connectors on yours look pretty shoddily done, and clearly one of them has massively overheated because it's gone brown and toasty, as has the reg/rec plug. Many things can cause this, from a dodgy reg/rec to the effect of corrosion on the connectors causing an increase the the resistance and therefore excessive heat buildup.

You say the battery is weeping. I'd dispose of it purely on those grounds, and I'd be willing to bet that this is one of the reasons it is not holding charge. However, this is probably a result of the real problem, not the cause. You won't find the issue until you have sorted the wiring. There are replica Honda reg/rec connectors on eBay from a Spanish seller. I've used one and while it's not absolutely stunning, for a mere three quid it is a bargain and they arrive in a few days putting many UK based sellers to shame. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... OC:GB:3160 Also, my preference would be to get a three pin plug for the alternator, although there is no reason you can't use bullets or individual spades if you prefer. I got one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-Way-Electri ... 1e78ab8721 along with some other bits from the same seller, and again it's not as high quality as the genuine article, however it's two quid. Honda actually do a repair kit for the alternator side of the loom and it's something daft like £30-40!

So, as with the previous advice, cut back and crappy wires until you find good, uncorroded strands inside. On my alternator wiring, this meant several inches! Use good quality automotive cable to replace what you cut out. Don't use cheap stuff, don't use stuff that's not specifically automotive, and use stuff with at least the same core area as what comes out. If you have to replace any of the red or green on the reg/rec plug this means 30A cable. Once you have the wiring sorted out, you can test the circuit properly, with a new battery. Your previous test readings seem to imply that the leaking one is not holding charge. Even if it was, it is leaking, so IMHO it is only fit for scrap.

The first test is to see if the reg/rec is overcharging the system. Overcharging can cause battery damage, and it can potentially burn the connectors as well. With the lights on, at 5000rpm you should read 13.5 to 15.5V DC at the battery terminals. Any higher, and the reg/rec is not reducing the output of the charging system enough and it must be replaced. I am pretty sure that if for some reason the alternator was producing excessive output, it would still be dissipated (or the unit would fry?), but I stand to be corrected. You could always check using the method below. Over time, this causes the battery to become damaged internally, and as a result it becomes less able to hold charge for any period of time and eventually won't hold anything at all. Under 13.5 and the system is not as efficient as it should be, and when you start getting under 13V you might as well think about walking. Usually, low voltage indicates poor wiring. This can usually be sorted by making sure all the connectors are nice and fresh, which you will hopefully have done ;-) However, it is not out of the question that there is a wiring issue somewhere in the middle of the loom, or the alternator may not be putting out what it should be.

Disconnect the alternator, and check the resistances as above. Then set the meter to AC on the 0-200 scale. At 5000rpm, each pair should produce 40-50 volts. If the voltage and resistance are in spec, I'd also check at the reg/rec plug for the same readings. They should be as near identical as makes no difference. If they are significantly different, it would suggest the wiring between the plugs needs investigating for damage or corrosion. In my case, there was 0.1 Ohm difference on one of the pairs, and I seem to recall the voltage was identical to a tenth or two.

If you find no obvious problem there, plug everything back in and measure the DC output at the reg/rec plug. Then measure it at the battery. A lot of people find that wiring directly from the reg/rec to the battery and bypassing the main wiring loom can make good gains. In my case, I went from barely being in spec to being right in the middle. To do this, you need some 30A automotive wire (I used both red and black to avoid confusion), an inline fuseholder rated at 30A, and some M6 battery terminals. At least, that's what I used. I ran both the red and black back to the battery. I guess you could use green instead of black as that's what Honda use for the negative side on the connector. Anyway, the black goes directly back to the battery. The red needs to have the fuseholder somewhere in it, I chose to put it at the battery end, and tuck it under the battery strap. Do not be tempted not to use one. If you were to get a dead short it would let this new wire draw as much current as it possibly could until it either melted, caught fire, or did something similar to another component on the bike. That is why there is a 30A fuse next to the solenoid, and you are bypassing it with this circuit. Also, make VERY sure you cap off the old wires from the reg/rec to the loom. The earth won't do any damage itself, but if the positive finds the earth, or finds earth by touching a metal part of the bike, you'll have a dead short and blow the main fuse.

Well, that's another chapter of War and Peace... lol
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Re: Battery Charging???

Post by Tornado » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:38 pm

Wow, good write up Speedy!

I wouldn't worry too much about the yellow wire ohm check unless your dead set on doing it chances are its ok (but it might not be a bad idea just to make 100% sure all is good) I say this because each leg has very consistent ac voltage on them with the bike running. If there was a resistance problem chances are one legs output would most likely be out of whack... A lot of times a resistance check will only show an open or too much resistance. If the winding is shorted it may not be picked up by the meter...In any case your alternator output appears to be good so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

As Speedy said it's a good idea to replace all the connectors and clean up the wiring. He's absolutely right in saying you cannot accurately troubleshoot this problem with burnt and corroded connectors and darkened wires. Fix those next.

The battery needs to go... Replace it. It's not supposed to leak and it should be holding a charge... Replace it! (If you need a second opinion ask Speedy.)

Now, lets say you've followed Speedy's (and a little of mine) advice... You know know your alternator is putting out, you have great wiring and a good battery, now check the voltage across the battery. If it is still low, its the regulator...it's the only thing left.

Your problem is a little more complicated as you have several things going on that can be affecting the output of another. The idea is to do the cheap and easy stuff first and not jump the gun by buying something you may not need or that is going to fail prematurely because you hadn't fixed the original problem to begin with.

Hope this helps!

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Re: Battery Charging???

Post by lanks » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:01 pm

magg: '26.1 again' is across the battery with the tester on ACV 200 the same as when the block was disconnected 26.1 didn't make any difference.

CM from the research I have found 13.5-15.5 should be across the battery, your right, low.

I've ridden only a few miles on it haven't done anymore since incase I damage something, is that right?

Just want to get it sorted was hoping to get to a bike meet/show Sunday (don't get many down here in Cornwall) but don't want to cause anymore problems.

Any chance its the battery that has had it and wont take much charge, it is leaking a bit?

Or more likely the the reg/rec has caused a problem and needs replacement?

Thanks for the help so far all.

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Re: Battery Charging???

Post by speedy231278 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:55 pm

Batteries are DC, so if you measure one with the meter on AC you are not going to get a meaningful reading. You only want to measure it with the meter on DC.

You need to do the checks above and sort the other issues out before contemplating going anywhere on the bike. If you do nothing, you 'll get there and by the sounds of it, almost certainly be unable to leave with a flat battery. If you just change the reg/rec, you'll probably get the same result. If you change just the battery, without checking that the state of the wiring is coincidental, you are risking the new battery being knackered in the same way as the old one. It might taker half a day to clean up the wiring and do the necessary testing, but it will save you from potentially destroying another battery and/or having more burned wires. If you're hell bent on going to this thing on Sunday, the only way you can be certain to do so and know you're not going to get a better than even chance of coming home on a trailer is to order a new battery and reg/rec for pickup or delivery Saturday or even same day if you can find a decent parts counter. Having said that, the battery isn't exactly uncommon, and the reg/rec is used on loads of Hondas so a decent bike shop might possibly have the bits on the shelf. Well, anyway, your call. Personally, I'd have already ordered the bits just in case. Probably why I have a significant £ sum of stuff in Honda bags at home... lol
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Re: Battery Charging???

Post by lanks » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:17 am

My last post was posted without seeing the two posts above it?

I have read through it all (twice) and will print it off tomorrow at work too, fantastic tips thanks very much for the time to put it on here for me both of you.

Anyway, I'm one for doing the job right and not worried about getting the bike to the show like that, bit of new toy syndrome!ha

Wife's gone out so back in the garage for another look!

I've cleaned the wires up this evening, they were not burnt back very far at all.
Bullet connected the three yellow (had some connectors)
I've ditched the battery

How about this as the next step

Get the new battery filled and charged up. Cut the old reg/rec block connector off (make a sketch of where the wires fit) and crimp some covered female blade connectors on and wire back up. Check the (hopefully) sorted wiring. Take it, it wont damage the new battery for a quick test?

Will order up a new block connector anyway.

Seem like a good plan, will get back to you with results tomorrow unless I hear anything else to do from you.

Thanks again, feel like I'll get this sorted now myself.

Cheers

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Re: Battery Charging???

Post by Neosophist » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:14 pm

lanks wrote:My last post was posted without seeing the two posts above it?

I have read through it all (twice) and will print it off tomorrow at work too, fantastic tips thanks very much for the time to put it on here for me both of you.

Anyway, I'm one for doing the job right and not worried about getting the bike to the show like that, bit of new toy syndrome!ha

Wife's gone out so back in the garage for another look!

I've cleaned the wires up this evening, they were not burnt back very far at all.
Bullet connected the three yellow (had some connectors)
I've ditched the battery

How about this as the next step

Get the new battery filled and charged up. Cut the old reg/rec block connector off (make a sketch of where the wires fit) and crimp some covered female blade connectors on and wire back up. Check the (hopefully) sorted wiring. Take it, it wont damage the new battery for a quick test?

Will order up a new block connector anyway.

Seem like a good plan, will get back to you with results tomorrow unless I hear anything else to do from you.

Thanks again, feel like I'll get this sorted now myself.

Cheers
Enough info is already above to not need repeating but DO NOT crimp the new connectors.

they need to be soldered.

the wires carry much current, if you crimp them they will soon oxidise up and burn away.
xivlia wrote:i dont go fast on this bike so really do not need a rear brake.. /
vic-vtrvfr wrote:Ask xivlia for help, he's tackled just about every problem u could think of...

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Re: Battery Charging???

Post by lanks » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:25 pm

Good heads up, brought a soldering iron home today, will get going on it later.

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Re: Battery Charging???

Post by lanks » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:44 pm

Well new connectors all on, new battery charged and in.
Done the testing and unsure now??

Bike running everything connected 5000rpm across battery 12.74 tester set on dcv20

Thought check the three yellow at reg/rec (this is where I don't get what's going on)
Three readings 52,0,0 tester on acv200
Because of that thought I ought to test the other end the three yellow coming out the alternator (may have done the last one wrong?) defo got the wires coming through the v this time double checked.
3 readings 51,44,35 tester on acv200 bike running at 4000rpm

I'm determined to get it sorted

One good thing the wiring looks neater!ha

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Re: Battery Charging???

Post by lanks » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:51 pm

Done some more research, looks like it could be the alternator then?
Do you guys think the same?
I'd like to order up/find the bits I need Saturday so they will come beginning of next week as I have a day off Thursday and would like to get it sorted for the weekend and get out on it.

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Re: Battery Charging???

Post by Tornado » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:57 am

Check the ac voltage on the yellow wires at the reg again... It should be exactly the same as at the connector down by the V. If you have 0 ac volts at the reg on some of the yellow wires... You have a wiring problem (open) between the connector down by the V and the reg.

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