Possible headgasket failure.

[speedy231278]

Pics might help. Maybe something hasn't seated quite right somewhere? If you have water and oil mixing, you'd expect to find creamy gunge floating on the coolant (check under the rad filler cap), and I guess possibly under the dipstick.

Sounds like a right bloody nightmare. Possibly another notch on the tally chart against non-Honda head gaskets. Will be a complete bastard when the big H decides not to bother having any more made..

[VFRkieran]

I plan on getting the fairing off sometime this week to check for any leaks around the joins, had a quick look at the front head gasket today and the edges seem all melted like i mentioned earlier.

If im honest i really made sure the gaskets where seated correctly before torquing the heads up so i doubt its that. Had a look at the dipstick today and the oil was fine not milky at all same as the coolant but the level was very very low so ive definatly lost some of that too.

Tried to start the bike and it was a complete nightmare to fire up this time, kept turning over and over until it finally caught and then ran ok on the sidestand up to 4-5k rpm, didnt get it warm enough for the thermostat to open so couldnt check for any bubbles in the expansion tank today.

Ive been having a think about why this could be caused if the gaskets are not at fault and my only 2 suggestions are:

The Versah gaskets are bare metal and not with a black coating like the Honda ones, so maybe i needed to use a gasket sealant on them? When i installed the heads i followed the workshop manual to the letter.

My left hand Exhaust can's internal baffling was very rusted and shot out of the bike when i was out for a ride last week, the soft material behind then blocked up the exhaust outlet which i only noticed when i stopped to fill up with fuel, could this have caused too much back pressure to build up and then push past the head gasket? (the bike was still firing on all4 when blocked up so i wouldnt have thought the back pressure was too bad as it didnt stall)


Hope anyone has the time to read all that and help me out explaining whats caused it,
Kieran.

[Neosophist]

I plan on getting the fairing off sometime this week to check for any leaks around the joins, had a quick look at the front head gasket today and the edges seem all melted like i mentioned earlier.

If im honest i really made sure the gaskets where seated correctly before torquing the heads up so i doubt its that. Had a look at the dipstick today and the oil was fine not milky at all same as the coolant but the level was very very low so ive definatly lost some of that too.

Tried to start the bike and it was a complete nightmare to fire up this time, kept turning over and over until it finally caught and then ran ok on the sidestand up to 4-5k rpm, didnt get it warm enough for the thermostat to open so couldnt check for any bubbles in the expansion tank today.

Ive been having a think about why this could be caused f the gaskets are not at fault and my only 2 suggestions are:

The Versah gaskets are bare metal and not with a black coating like the Honda ones, so maybe i needed to use a gasket sealant on them? When i installed the heads i followed the workshop manual to the letter.

My left hand Exhaust can's internal baffling was very rusted and shot out of the bike when i was out for a ride last week, the soft material behind then blocked up the exhaust outlet which i only noticed when i stopped to fill up with fuel, could this have caused too much back pressure to build up and then push past the head gasket? (the bike was still firing on all4 when blocked up so i wouldnt have thought the back pressure was too bad as it didnt stall)


Hope anyone has the time to read all that and help me out explaining whats caused it,
Kieran.

Those gaskets should be fine, and to have 2 fail is very very rare. That condition would sound like bad installation to me. (have you changed head gaskets before?) I dont think HGF is your issue anyway.


You wont push oil past the head-gasket unless its broken or mal installed.

From your explanation, especially around the exhausts is that it sounds like oil is leaking from the drain holes half way up the engine?

These are the spark plug drain holes, and the most common reason oil gets into them is the rubber gasket on the rockerbox isnt in properly or broken, causing oil to leak and it usually goes into those drain holes and then drips aroudn the engine.

If the headgasket was gone id expect milk oil, boiling over, oily water, steam from exhaust even when hot.

Hard starting after a while could be anything.. from oil leaking into the plug holes causing misfire (as per my idea above) to the bike being too rich, valve cleareances being out of spec and the plugs having sooted up.

[VFRkieran]

Hi Neo thanks for the reply, This is the first time i have changed head gaskets however im not sure where i could have gone wrong apart from not using any gasket sealant, they where the right way up, torqued down properly, dowels where in place so they where also lined up correctly.

Would it have been possible for me to push air into the waterjacket if there was too much back pressure? I wouldnt have thought this would be the case as normally it would stall if it builds up too much, but the r/h pipe is clear and running fine so perhaps that why it carried on running, and caused the gasket to get damaged.

I did think that it could have been oil leaking down the spark plug holes and through the drain, but i did 200miles without issue last week without a problem, the rocker cover gaskets where new Versah ones but it is possible i piched it on installation.

However this wouldnt explain the bubbles in my coolant expansion tank or the struggling to start yesterday, i should have the time to remove the fairing tomorow afternoon and start the bike to see exactly where the oil is coming from. Will also remove the rad cap and check to see if any air is trapped in there.

[Neosophist]

Hi Neo thanks for the reply, This is the first time i have changed head gaskets however im not sure where i could have gone wrong apart from not using any gasket sealant, they where the right way up, torqued down properly, dowels where in place so they where also lined up correctly.

Would it have been possible for me to push air into the waterjacket if there was too much back pressure? I wouldnt have thought this would be the case as normally it would stall if it builds up too much, but the r/h pipe is clear and running fine so perhaps that why it carried on running, and caused the gasket to get damaged.

I did think that it could have been oil leaking down the spark plug holes and through the drain, but i did 200miles without issue last week without a problem, the rocker cover gaskets where new Versah ones but it is possible i piched it on installation.

However this wouldnt explain the bubbles in my coolant expansion tank or the struggling to start yesterday, i should have the time to remove the fairing tomorow afternoon and start the bike to see exactly where the oil is coming from. Will also remove the rad cap and check to see if any air is trapped in there.

Bubbling in the coolant does indicate a HGF as pressure from the cylinder is making its way into the coolant, this causes pressure and boiling over, usually the oil will get shitted up.

Another theory is that there was an airlock somehwere in the system which caused an overheat and blew the gaskets?

Anyhow.. find out where the oil is comeing from first.

Bubbles could just be normal over-heating.

[VFRkieran]

So today i have had another quick look at the bike, removed the radiator cap topped it up with a bit more coolant as it was quite low. I then started the bike and did the usual checks for an airlock in the system, the coolant level was moving up and down as it should when the rpm was increased.

Since i first started the bike the temp has only been a smidge above 90c on one or two occasions for very short periods of time so unless an airlock could make the temperature fail to register on the clock i think that will be ok.

I am still unsure exactly where the oil is coming from, i can see residue coming out of the plug drain holes but the majority is from the rear headers, i havent had a chance to remove much of the bodywork to get a better look or to get decent photo's of the HG on the join, like i mentioned before it allmost looks like its melted.

I tried to start the bike today and it took a long time to get it fired up, the L/H exhaust outlet was still not completly free of the wadding, i warmed the bike up to temp checked for any oil leaks, strangely there where none this time. Took the bike down a little private lane thats not far from my house and it was struggling to get up to 90mph and would not rev past 11.5k and felt really really low on power and was just running like a bag of shite.

Got the bike home and discovered that again the L/H exhaust outlet was blocked up completly, also checked for any bubbles in the coolant and there where one or two coming out of the overflow hose into the bottle (HRC style so i could see without removing the fairing) Then when i switched the bike off i heard a little pop and lots of bubbles and little bits of silver material which i presume is HG shot into the overflow tank.

I then decided to try and pull all of the baffling out of the exhaust which after a good hour with the long nose pliers it was all out, including various bits of broken rusted perforated tubing, i then decided to start the bike and see if this had changed anything, after a good 5-10 seconds of turning over the bike fired and was running normally but very very loud, i took it back up the lane and it was pulling much better right up to the red line and would have easily reached top speed, i saw about 115 on the speedo and it was still pulling, it started to rain so i quickly took the bike back and put it in the garage without having a chance to check for any bubbles in the overflow.

Big essay again but i dont want to miss anything, if someone actually has the patience to read all of that then thanks.

[CMSMJ1]

there are a few things in there mate..

1: sort that exhaust out
2: bubbling into the overflow can be a crap rad cap as the pressure in the system is low. Yuu might have a fecked pump? I doubt the HG is going to get about the system and into the coolant bottle - imagine the route it has to go..

[Morespeedvicar]

Hi, deffo sort out the exhaust! Then try and degrease the engine, and make sure you can see were the oil is coming from! I'd try and do a compression test aswell. The coolant level will change when revving because your changing the speed of the pump! I wouldnt worry about bits in the water either as you've prob disturbed the in the rebuild. Do a coolant change aswell to make sure, just try using water for now cos i dont suppose it'll freeze for a month or two hopefully, tho you never know!!! lol
Cheers
Ian

[VFRkieran]

Thanks for the replies again guys i appreciate that im sounding like a bit of a numpty with all this, just a little frustrated with it and been so busy the last 2 weeks.

First of all, the exhaust is now completly free of blockages, obviously needs a new baffle which is going to be on order from PJ engineering when i get it measured up, probably going to do the other at the same time for peace of mind.

Water pump was free of any corrosion whatsoever when i checked it in the rebuild so i cant see a reason for that to cause a problem, i have a spare rad cap kicking about so i will swap them over today and see if i have any luck.

Engine was fully degreased when i had it out of the frame, once i get a chance to remove the fairing i will detirmine exactly where its coming from, only thing thats going to stop me is it seems to be an intermittent problem.

Was expecting the level of coolant to change as this shows there isnt an air lock in the system unless i am mistaken.

Hopefully will report back tonight on the coolant issue once i have swapped the rad cap, if im still having trouble then a coolant change and brand new rad cap will be ordered.

[venom51]

Bad valve stems seals are going to always cause smoke out the pipe...it will never get better only worse. They won't leak enough for it to make it out the exhaust outlet in that short of a time period. The expansion tank for the coolant is just that...an expansion tank...if the bike doesn't push a little out into the tank when the bike is up to temp than there isn't enough coolant in the system. If it was truly a popped head gasket the quality of the radiator cap would have no effect. It will still push water into the bottle and eventually over flow the bottle....

We've built a couple with the Vesrah kits...they are fine. A little copper coat on the gaskets is not a bad idea during installation. On a multilayer gasket it's not needed but won't hurt anything. My only other observation after having just had this problem is did you put the 20 year old head bolts back in it? They don't last forever and will lose holding strength allowing the head to lift and break the gasket seal.